JewsAndJoes.com/Blog
5Apr/083

Palestinians descended from Northern Kingdom (10-Tribe) Israelites?

Not long ago I was doing some Google keyword research and came upon an article claiming that the Palestinians are the best modern representation of the ancient Northern Kingdom-House of Joseph, otherwise known as the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. Perplexed at the author's ignorance of the historical account and the prophecies regarding the 10-Tribe return, I emailed him asking a couple quick questions which later became a much more lengthy dialog. Some may find it interesting. I realize the author has not and likely will not truly consider my critique of his evidence, but hopefully others may. Not wanting my time spent to be completely wasted, our correspondence is laid out below for others to read from start to finish (I've removed my and his email addresses for privacy reasons). It is a bit lengthy and not for the faint of heart.

------------Original Message-------------
From: Hanok [mailto:...@jewsandjoes.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 5:51 PM
To: ...@lycos.com
Subject: Israel and the Palestinians in Prophecy?

Just read your article here: http://www.angelfire.com/journal/bibleissues/israel/israel_palestinian.htm

I’m curious how you reconcile the prophecies that the House of Joseph (Israel) would become a multitude of nations? The Palestinians have certainly not become such. Also, prophecies record the House of Joseph would be brought back from the four corners of the earth. Have the Palestinians recently been re-gathered to the Land of Israel?

-Hanok
JewsAndJoes.com

"And I shall strengthen the House of Jew-dah, and I shall save the House of Joe-seph. And I shall bring them back, because I have compassion on them." - Zechariah 10:6a

------------Original Message-------------
From: Jerry Chin [mailto:...@lycos.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 2:22 PM
To: ...@jewsandjoes.com
Subject: [RE]Israel and the Palestinians in Prophecy?

The prophecy of Ephraim becoming a company of nations is contingent on obedience (Genesis 48:15-20 RSV).

Jacob's blessing clearly states he and his fathers "walked" before God (v15). The Hebrew text concerning the angel reads, "may he bless." What would happen if Joseph's children didn't walk as Jacob? In verse 16, Jacob says, "let my name be perpetuated", and "let them grow into a multitude." If the blessing was guaranteed, Jacob would have said "my name will be perpetuated," and "they will grow into a multitude."

The actual blessing takes priority over verse 19, where Jacob says Ephraim will become a company of nations. Verse 19 was Jacob's explanation to Joseph why he placed his right hand on Ephraim. It probably reflected his true desire for Joseph's children, but it was not part of the blessing.

Note how Zechariah 10 makes no mention of Joseph's children being a company of nations. Nor does it say the house of Joseph would be great. It only states they will be numerous. This supports the idea that the blessing was contingent on obedience.

(If you have a concordance, just look up Ephraim. You'll find many unflattering prophecies concerning Ephraim: Isaiah 9:9,21 11:13 28:1,3 Jeremiah 31:20 Hosea 4:47 7:8,11 9:3,11. If the blessing in Genesis 48:15-20 was guaranteed, it would not fit any of these verses. The Bible would not make any sense.)

This is not to say Jacob's entire blessing came to nothing. In Genesis 49:26, we see that some aspects of what he said would come true.

The Palestinians currently have their own diaspora just like the Jews. Most of them are in the Middle East. Half of the kingdom of Jordan is Palestinian. (Palestine and Jordan used to be Transjordan.) There are sizeable communities/refugee camps in Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq. Zechariah 10:10 mentions these areas specifically. This prophecy only mentions the house of Joseph being numerous.

The prophecy in Zechariah is definite. Whether Ephraim and Manasseh are obedient or not does not change this prophecy. God will bring them back. This prophecy is still in the process of being fulfilled.

------------Original Message-------------
From: Hanok [mailto:...@jewsandjoes.com]
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 5:41 PM
To: 'Jerry Chin'
Subject: RE: [RE]Israel and the Palestinians in Prophecy?

Yes indeed. The Prophets were unflattering to the House of Joseph… and deservedly so, but almost always, it is followed up with statements of compassion. The scroll of Hosea is one of the best examples of this. In the very first chapter, it clearly says they would be punished and scattered, but then in their exile they would become as numerous as the “sand of the sea”. Have you not read verses such as this? Where were the conditions there Sir Jerry?

The promise of multitudes was first given to Abraham, was it not? And was it conditional? And if it wasn’t conditional, then who are his promised multitudes? And what multitude could be his who walked perfectly in his way of righteousness? There isn’t any Jerry. House of Joseph has suffered miserably because of their evil, but yet they have multiplied not on their own account but on the account of Abraham’s righteousness.

Genesis 48:15-16 references the righteousness of Abraham and Isaac, thus the unconditional future promises to them that their seed would become a great multitude. You’re doing a lot of theological gymnastics to come upon your “conditional” conclusion. The promises to Abraham (Gen.35:11) and Isaac (Gen.22:17) were NOT contingent upon their seed being righteous. Ephraim simply inherited their unconditional promises. If Ephraim didn’t, then who did… since Abraham and Isaac had no conditions attached to their respective promises? Besides, why would Flavius Josephus reference the ten tribes of Israel in the 1st Century CE as being an immense multitude east of the Euphrates if they weren’t so?

Mildly sizable Palestinian populations in Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq do not fit with the ingathering prophecies … where they are regarded as being at the four corners of the earth (besides, why are you referencing so-called large populations in the Middle East when you already said the Ephraimite promise was “conditional”?).

I do not at all doubt the Palestinian people have Joseph, Judah, Ishmael, Canaan and who knows what else mixed in their gene pool. But to diminish the promise given to Ephraim is to unwittingly call YHVH, the Creator of the Universe, a liar. You would do well to reconsider that suggestion.

-Hanok
JewsAndJoes.com

------------Original Message-------------
From: R J Chin [mailto:...@accessv.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:41 AM
To: ...@jewsandjoes.com
Subject: re: Palestinians as Israel

Sorry for the long time taken to reply. I seem to have email problems.

Did Ephraim really inherit Jacob's blessing? You can't assume he did just because it was Jacob's wish. Abraham was perfectly happy to have two sons until Sarah insisted on Isaac. God later confirmed her decision. Isaac was going to bless Esau (not Jacob), but Rebekah intervened. It was only much later that an angel confirmed Isaac's reluctant blessing of Jacob. Just as it was not up to Abraham or Isaac, so it was not up to Jacob. It was up to God's sovereign will. And in this case there is no evidence God confirmed Jacob's blessing of Ephraim.

You mention Josephus stating that Israel was numerous north east of the Euphrates. You're not the first. Others have proposed the theory of Israel moving north and on into Europe. Of course the Europeans colonized and gave birth to many nations throughout the world. Thus it was claimed that either Britain or the USA was Ephraim. The current peoples of Europe all came out of the Siberian plateau. This is the land of Gog and Magog. I don't think it wise to label anyone from this region as any part of Israel. Besides, Hosea 5:13, 7:11, 9:3, 11:5 and 11:11 all associate Ephraim with Assyria and Egypt in the Middle East. How do you explain these verses?

God did not promise Abraham that each generation of his descendants would be more numerous than the last. He promised an uncountable number of descendants as a whole. Abraham's family line was never going to end, and thus his descendants would be uncountable. God's promise did not guarantee that any of these generations would be extraordinarily numerous. Descendants numbering like the "sand of the sea" may not be as numerous as you think. Israel in King Solomon's time was already said to be like the "sand" of the sea (1 Kings 4:20, 29). At that time, Israel probably numbered no more than 10 million.

Deuteronomy 4:27, and Isaiah 10:22 clearly state there will not be a massive return of exiles. Revelation 7:4 raises the possibility only 144000 from all the tribes will be accepted by God at the end. How do you reconcile your ideas with this?

You claim God's promises to Abraham were unconditional. Isn't circumcision a condition (Genesis 7:10)? What do you think the word "covenant" means? How do you explain the entire book of Deuteronomy? Deuteronomy 28:62 and Isaiah 48:17 clearly give the "conditions" necessary for God to make Abraham's descendants like the "sand of the sea."

I'm afraid you're the one really out on a limb, stretching Abraham's righteousness like a magic charm to support a blessing to Ephraim that never took place. (Abraham's belief that God would do as He said, was "reckoned as righteous." This is very different from saying Abraham himself was righteous.) Good luck trying to reconcile your ideas to the verses above, and to all parts of the Bible.

Jerry

------------Original Message-------------
From: Hanok [mailto:...@jewsandjoes.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:04 AM
To: 'R J Chin'
Subject: RE: Palestinians as Israel

Fundamentally, we aren't going to see eye to eye because you are arguing from the premise that the Palestinians are Israelites, while I'm arguing from the premise that Israel became the "fullness of the nations"(Genesis 48:19). I believe history, prophecy, and genetics all confirm my premise. If you like to see how genetics is confirming it, check it out here: Israelite and Noahic Haplogroup Hypotheses

Even so, I'd like to make an attempt to respond to your last email, particularly where you wish me "luck" in reconciling my ideas with all parts of the Bible:

1. The Almighty confirmed Ephraim inherited Jacob's promise of "multitudes" through the Prophet Hosea, Isaiah, and others.

Isaiah 54:3: "For you shall break forth to the right and to the left, and your seed inherit the nations, and make the deserted cities inhabited."

Hosea 1:10: "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor counted. And it shall be in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' they shall be called, 'You are the sons of the living El.'"

2. You refer to Flavius Josephus as if he was some trivial historical source... which is interesting since most scholars who study the 1st century have high regards for what he recorded, being one of the most prominent sources of information from that period. He said Israel became a vast multitude in the same regions Assyria deported them to, yet you turn a blind-arrogant eye to what he said... even though it confirms what the Prophets said would come of Israel.

3. You assume the Europeans came out of the Siberian plateau based upon who knows what. Yet, genetics has confirmed they came to Europe via the Middle East and the Caucasus/Caspian (the region of the Medes to which the Assyrians deported Israel). Many of the Hebrew Prophets indicate Jacob would return from the north country (Zechariah 2:6) and from all the places YHVH scattered them (Isaiah 43:6; Jeremiah 31:8). Gog and Magog are also in the north country. This shouldn't be alarming since Genesis confirms Japheth would dwell in the tents of Shem (Genesis 9:27). Hosea being commanded to marry a woman named "Gomer" is also a picture of Israelites and Japhetic peoples mixing in some fashion.

4. You're right, the Most High "did not promise Abraham that each generation of his descendants would be more numerous than the last." At least not in those words. But He did promise to Abraham that he would be a "father of many nations" (Genesis 17:5)... albeit... the promise was given in the Hebrew language and the English translation is remarkably true to the original text. Yet, you can and likely will interpret that to fit your Palestinian premise. But I'm going to interpret it as this: Abraham is going to be a "father of many nations". I've documented a long list of the scriptural multitude promises here: The Birthright Promise of Multitudes in Scripture.

5. 10 million Israelites in King Solomon's day? I'm not sure where you're getting that number from, but let us assume you're approximately correct. What can Exponential Population Growth do with 10 million Israelites after 3,000 years? I can tell you one thing: the meager Palestinian population doesn't represent it!!!!! See my article here: Exponential Human Population Growth from Noah. You are either blind to the power of exponents or willfully ignorant of them. Also, your referencing 1Kings 4:20 (sands of the sea shore) doesn't diminish the Prophecy of Hosea... but instead, it actually lends even greater credibility to what Israel has become over the last 3000 years sense.

6. I have not said there will be massive return of the House of Joseph to the Land. I've only verified that they themselves have become a multitude just as the Torah and Prophets said they would. There is no doubt in my mind that only a remnant will return to the Land of Israel, namely because that is what the Prophets indicate (i.e. Jeremiah 31:7). And I suspect even that remnant is going to shock the socks off of all the "theological gymnasts" like yourself... because even a remnant of the House of Joseph is going to cause them to cry out for more room when they return to the Land of Israel.

Isaiah 49:20 "The children of whom you were bereaved will yet say in your ears, 'The place is too cramped for me; Make room for me that I may live here."

Note: The Palestinians don't need more room in Israel. They just want the Jews to be gone. They only crowd in to under-capacity cities in the Gaza. There is plenty of room yet in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon where the bulk of their populations dwell.

7. Assyria's capital was east of the Euphrates and east of the Euphrates is the location of most of the deportations. Yet, most of the Palestinians have no historical evidence of returning from Assyria. Maybe you're getting confused with modern nation of Syria which is west of the Euphrates.

8. Now lets look at your Hosea references:

Hosea 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.

Ephraim was deported to Assyria. No one is arguing about that. But this reference is to their call for alliance and help. Not deportation yet.

Hosea 7:11 Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria.

The Northern Kingdom called for the help of their old ally Egypt (Egypt and Phoenicia were allied with King David) when the King of Israel reneged on his promised financial tributes to the Assyrian king. As punishment, Assyria swiftly invaded and deported the first lot to "Assyria", hence Hosea says "they go to Assyria". It doesn't say they went to Egypt in deportation... ONLY that they called for their help to fight against Assyria. Egypt didn't nor could help at that stage.

Hosea 9:3 They shall not dwell in the LORD'S land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

The word "Egypt" here is translated from the Hebrew "Mitrayim" meaning "tribulation"... which is what Israel experienced in Egypt on the first go round. The prophets indicate the next Exodus will be so great it will cause us to forget the first Exodus out of Egypt, meaning it will be much larger than your ridiculous Israelite attribution to the Palestinian people (Jeremiah 23:7-8).

Hosea 11:5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
Hosea 11:11 They shall tremble as a bird out of Egypt, and as a dove out of the land of Assyria: and I will place them in their houses, saith the LORD.

Verse 5 actually says Israel WON'T return to Egypt but instead to Assyria... which is the historical reality. Then verse 11 apparently contradicts verse 5 by saying Israel will come out of Egypt. This apparent contradiction is unraveled when considered with what I said earlier about "Mitrayim" connected to "Tribulation"... which makes even more sense when you consider verse eleven speaks of "trembling as a bird" out of Egypt... which is referencing "Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:1-11) during the period Christians call "the Tribulation".

9. And regarding your tirade regarding the "promise of multitudes" being contingent or conditioned on Israel needing to keep the Torah covenant. When you consider the verses surrounding the promises of multitudes, you don't find any conditions connected to the promise. And the fact that Hosea (mainly chapter 1), first showing the Northern Kingdom being punished and exiled because of their breaking of the covenant, and yet then still receiving the binding and unconditional promise of: "Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered"

Theological gymnastics of the most bizarre.

-Hanok

Comments (3) Trackbacks (0)
  1. Ok I’ll try and keep this short because it’s late. If anyone want all the sources let me know.

    Basically, the Middle Eastern Jews for the most part descend from the Northern 10 tribes of Israel and the European Jews descend from the tribes of Judah and Binyamin. The Palestinians desecend from various relatives of ours and I’ll hopefully get to that at the end.

    Lets start at the beginning. At the time of king Solomon all the Nation of Israel lives under one king in Israel. The king Marries both the Queen of Arabia and of Ethiopia. The first two satellite Israeli communities are established in these countries. The Arabian community is predominantly of Israelite origin and the Ethiopian community is predominantly composed of Ethiopian converts.

    The king sins and G-d decides to punish him by splitting his Nation after his death. He promises that Judah will be punished for his sins and the the northern tribes of Israel would one day be brought back to inherit the land. Note that the majority of middle eastern Jews now life in Israel and that the Holocaust happened to the European Jews. He promised that they whole nation would be brought back together and into the land and become like one Nation again. Now both sides live together as one in the state of Israel. The Army of Israel at the times of Messiah is called “the Army of the Princes of Judah. The military establishment in Israel is predominantly run by Jews of European descent.

    After the split the the northern tribes went with the Phoenicians to North Africa and helped establish the Empire of Carthage. Establishing the “Jewish” communities of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. The Libyan Jews mostly descend from converts of Berber descent.

    Some time later the Northern tribes fell into conflict with Assyria and first the tribes Gad, Reuben and half of Menashe were sent to Assyria. Then Asher, Naftali, Dan, Issachar and Zevulin were also sent to Assyria. This makes up the bulk of the Kurdish and Syrian “Jewish” populations. As well possibly of ceveral of the former USSR southern territories such as Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    According to the Cronicals of The Kings of Judah a large portion of the men of Asher, Issachar, Zevulin, Shimon, Ephraim and Mennashe all fled to the sanctuary of the kingdom of Judah at this point. As well there is a Jewish legend or “midrash ” that says that many men of Asher, Dan, Gad and Naftali fled to Arabia. Now after the death of Mohammed all the Jews were forced out of central Arabia and into Yemen. This migration along with the descendant of the original Jewish immigrants from the time of Solomon make up the Yemenite Jewish population.

    Finaly the remaining Men of Epharaim and Mennashe were evicted from Sammaria and sent to live in Media and Persia. Today Iran and Afghanistan. These are the ancestors of todays Iranian, Afghani and Buchari Jews.

    There has been much talk about the ancestry of the Pashtus of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir. They are not descendants of the lost tribes DNA test confirm that they are of Persian origin. They are descendant of the original “Sumaritans” that were moved into summaria by the King Shalmanezzar of Assyria. They were sent Jewish perist to teach them the Jewish customs that they observed while in Israel. Later Cyrus king of Persia had them moved back to Persia when he moved all the people back to there sacred lands and corrected the injustices done by the kings of Assyria.

    This concludes what became of the northern kingdom now to continue with the southern kingdom of Judah.

    The next major migration was done during the Reign of the king Mannashe of Judah. Many men of Judah led by the priest who rebelled against the evils of king Mannashe fled to Egypt and founded the city of Amarna. Some of these people later left for the Jewish country of Ethiopia and joined there follow believers there.

    Next Judah was invaded by the Babylonians. who exiled the kingdom of Judah to Babylon. thus establishing what eventually became the Iraqi Jewish community. They were then returned to Israel by Cyrus the king of Persia and thus established a Jewish presence in Israel once again.

    A while later Israel was invaded by Greece. This was a peaceful takeover at first where the Jews and the Greeks had a good relationship. So the Jews began migrating to Greece, Turkey, Lebanon and Coastal Syria. After some time things went bad between the Greeks and the Jews and the Jews decided to evict the Greeks from their land, this began the decline of Greek civilization.

    Next the Romans conquered Israel and for a while things were good and many Jew willfully moved to Italy for economic reasons. Later the Jews and the Roman came into conflict and had a war after which the Jewish temple was destroyed and 15,000 Jews were forced into slavery building the coliseum in Rome. About fifty year later they got into another war where 2 million Jews were killed and over a million were forced to leave Israel and move into Spain and Southern France.

    The Jews lived in Spain and Southern France until at around the 1200′s the Jews started undergoing sever religious persecution by the Catholic church. This culminated with the Inquisition where spain was essentualy ethnicaly cleansed of Jews. Many of these Jews converted to Christianity and fled to the new world as conquistidors. A large number joined there long lost brothers in North Africa, Greece and Turkey. But, Most of them moved to Germany, Holland and eventually towards Eastern Europe.

    I eastern Europe they met up with the descendants of Jews who had once lived in Greece and Turkey but had fled to Russia and Eastern Europe during the Byzantine era under religious persecution by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Interestingly while these Jews were living in Russia they managed to convince the five leading families of a tribal group called the Kazars to convert to Judaism at around the 500 A.D. mark. These Kazars represent about 12% of the genepool of the European “Ashkenazi” population.

    That Pretty much covers the Jews now for the Palestinian. Now lets start with our cousins the Edomites. The Edomites or Edomians descend from Isau the brother of Jacob. The Edomites originally lived in Jordan around the city of Petra which they build. During the period of the second temple they migrated into the area known as Judah mostly around the cities of Hevron and Bethlehem. Today they make up the majority of “Arabs” in this region. Durring the reign of the Maccabees they were converted to Judaism however they were never concidered like full Jews. This is evident in the story of king Herod who was of Edomite Origin and never considered a Jewish king.

    The Arabs of the Galilee mostly descend from the Iturians who are the descendants of Ishmael who migrated into Israel during the second temple period and who were also converted to Judaism by the Maccabees. Also the Edomites and Jews who followed Jesus from Judah into the Galilee are represented in the Arabs of the Galilee.

    The Arabs in Sumeria mostly descend from Jews on their fathers side and Assyrians on there mothers side. They come from the children of mixed marriages that were sent out of the main Jewish population by Ezra during the period of returning from the Babylonian Exile.

    The Arabs on the coast, particularly in Gaza mostly come from the descendants of the Philistines who are from Crete originally. As well as from Greeks and Egyptians where are left over from the various period of their control.

    In Jordan There are mostly the descendants of our cousins the Moavites and the Ammonites who are the children of Abraham’s nephew Lot. As well as some Edomites and Iturians.

    The Bedouin are not related to us , they are from central Arabia. However they have a tradition that they were with us at Mount Siani and are thought to be from the “mixed multitude” that Moshe saved from Egypt.

    The remaining Palestinians descend from The dependence of the Canaanites who agreed to live in peace with the Israelites under the rule of king David. As well as various other people who came through here over the years. Such as Turkish, Sudanese, Afghani, eastern European and elsewhere.

    So Thats that. As far as I understand Judaism rquires that we allow both the Edomites and the Egyptians to live in Israel. As well as any non-Jew who agrees to follow the basic human laws and we believe were told to Noah after the flood. Don’t kill, Don’t steal, No sexual immorality, don’t curse G-d, Believe in one G-d, don’t abuse animals and pursue justice and peace.

    So we are all the right people who belong here now we only need to learn to live together in peace.

  2. Since you spent so much time on your comment, I couldn’t ever bring myself to delete it. There is much that I disagree with, but history is full of speculation and censorship… so it is difficult for me to censor your speculation.

    I will briefly comment on a couple things. You said: “There has been much talk about the ancestry of the Pashtus of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir. They are not descendants of the lost tribes DNA test confirm that they are of Persian origin. They are descendant of the original “Sumaritans” that were moved into summaria by the King Shalmanezzar of Assyria. They were sent Jewish perist to teach them the Jewish customs that they observed while in Israel. Later Cyrus king of Persia had them moved back to Persia when he moved all the people back to there sacred lands and corrected the injustices done by the kings of Assyria.”

    DNA has simply confirmed the populations stretching from Europe to India (including Pashtuns and Kashmiris) have a large male population represented by Y-Haplogroup R. All those people aren’t descended from Sumaritans or Persians. They are more likely descended of Ephraim because of the promise that he would become “the fullness of the peoples (goyim)”. Please see my article Israelite and Noahic Haplogroup Hypotheses.

    Also, I would love to see your sources on a Persian king correcting injustices done by Assyria. The only record I know of is Artaxerxes allowing Judah to return to Israel during the time of Ezra (that was correcting the actions of Babylon, not Assyria). Besides, Flavius Josephus, Rabbi Akiva, and Rabbi Eliezer indicate several hundred years after Persia had fallen that the 10 Tribes of Israel had yet returned to their former lands in the Land of Israel (at least not in any large representation). See my article: 10 Reasons the Jews are from Judah

  3. I must thank you for writing. Regrettably, I too don’t have enough time to answer more promptly. Checking Bible verses is a lengthy process, but I’ve put up a page devoted to this topic on my website. Most of it is already up: bibleissues.atspace.com/israel/lost_tribes.htm

    Your correspondence caused me to re-examine many verses. I wasn’t 100% certain of my conclusions before, but now you’ve inadvertantly strengthened and expanded my initial views. I don’t see how history, prophecy or genetics is confirming your views. You seem to jump to too many conclusions.

    (By the way, I’m not working from the view of Palestinians being Israelites. I’m working straight from the Bible and came to that conclusion. It may be scientific to first establish a hypotheses and then test it, but this can be dangerous when we read the Bible through what could be the lens of our own bias and prejudices (Jer 17:9) It is always best to let the Bible text speak for itself without our preconceived ideas.)

    I’m not only responding to your last email, but also to some of your previous emails.

    From your second email, March 17, 2008…

    You wrote:
    Yes indeed. The Prophets were unflattering to the House of Joseph and deservedly so, but almost always, it is followed up with statements of compassion. The scroll of Hosea is one of the best examples of this. In the very first chapter, it clearly says they would be punished and scattered, but then in their exile they would become as numerous as the ‘sand of the sea’. Have you not read verses such as this? Where were the conditions there Sir Jerry?

    My reply:
    You’re assuming Israel would become numerous multitudes in exile. Hosea 9:11-14, 17 tells us Ephraim will be cursed in exile: no birth, no pregnancy, no conception, with sons destined for prey and slaughter. They would be wanderers among the nations. They will not multiply until the very end (Ezekiel 28:30, 41). Which verse are you using to say Hosea 9:11-14, 17 is already long over, or no longer applies?

    You wrote:
    The promise of multitudes was first given to Abraham, was it not? And was it conditional? And if it wasn’t conditional, then who are his promised multitudes? And what multitude could be his who walked perfectly in his way of righteousness? There isn’t any Jerry. House of Joseph has suffered miserably because of their evil, but yet they have multiplied not on their own account but on the account of Abraham’s righteousness.

    My reply:
    You’re assuming that the promise must be fulfilled now. It will happen at the very end (Isaiah 60:1-22). Not now. Abraham was reckoned righteous. He demonstrated that he always returned to God even if he made a mistake (Genesis 15:6). What makes you say Israel is reckoned righteous right now? It is up to God to say when Israel will be “reckoned” righteous, and Isaiah 60:1-22 tells us this happens much much later.

    You wrote:
    Genesis 48:15-16 references the righteousness of Abraham and Isaac, thus the unconditional future promises to them that their seed would become a great multitude. You’re doing a lot of theological gymnastics to come upon your “conditional” conclusion. The promises to Abraham (Gen.35:11) and Isaac (Gen.22:17) were NOT contingent upon their seed being righteous. Ephraim simply inherited their unconditional promises. If Ephraim didn’t, then who did since Abraham and Isaac had no conditions attached to their respective promises? Besides, why would Flavius Josephus reference the ten tribes of Israel in the 1st Century CE as being an immense multitude east of the Euphrates if they weren’t so?

    My reply:
    The Hebrew text of Genesis 48:15-16 uses indefinite language to bless Ephraim. (See my email March 29.)
    Gen.22:18 states Abraham’s descendants will be a blessing. Obviously they will not be a blessing if they are disobedient. Commonsense tells us they cannot be a blessing while disobedient.
    In my March 29 email I said I didn’t know who inherited the promises after Jacob, but now I actually have a verse. God rejected Joseph and Ephraim (Psalm 78:67) and chose Judah. This is clear and definite, unlike Genesis 48:15-16 which God never confirms. David received a promise to have descendants like the stars. Jesus now holds all the promises (Jeremiah 33:14-16).

    You wrote:
    Mildly sizable Palestinian populations in Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq do not fit with the ingathering prophecies where they are regarded as being at the four corners of the earth (besides, why are you referencing so called large populations in the Middle East when you already said the Ephraimite promise was “conditional”?).

    My reply:
    As seen in the references above (Hosea 9:11-14, 17, Ezekiel 28:30, 41, Isaiah 60:1-22) you’re mistaken in the number of Israelites and therefore also mistaken in the size of the return.
    You’ve also mistakenly assumed I’m including all the Middle East populations with the Palestinians. I’m not.

    You wrote:
    I do not at all doubt the Palestinian people have Joseph, Judah, Ishmael, Canaan and who knows what else mixed in their gene pool. But to diminish the promise given to Ephraim is to unwittingly call YHVH, the Creator of the Universe, a liar. You would do well to reconsider that suggestion.

    My reply:
    You’ve ignored the very last line in my email. “This prophecy is still in the process of being fulfilled.” I’m not denying or diminishing God’s promises.

    Responding to your email April 02, 2008…

    You wrote:
    Fundamentally, we aren’t going to see eye to eye because you are arguing from the premise that the Palestinians are Israelites, while I’m arguing from the premise that Israel became the “fullness of the nations” (Genesis 48:19). I believe history, prophecy, and genetics all confirm my premise. If you like to see how genetics is confirming it, check it out here: Israelite and Noahic Haplogroup Hypotheses.

    My reply:
    I’m not working from premises or hypotheses. I work from the text of the Bible as much as possible. A hypotheses is not proof. I see you’re not answering my previous refutation of your interpretation of Genesis 48:19. “Did Ephraim really inherit…?”

    You wrote:
    1. The Almighty confirmed Ephraim inherited Jacob’s promise of “multitudes” through the Prophet Hosea, Isaiah, and others.
    Isaiah 54:3: “For you shall break forth to the right and to the left, and your seed inherit the nations, and make the deserted cities inhabited.”
    Hosea 1:10: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor counted. And it shall be in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they shall be called, ‘You are the sons of the living El.’”

    My reply:
    Isaiah 54:3 is saying that Israel is going to expand from Canaan. Nothing here is mentioned of multitudes or being nations.

    Inheriting nations is not the same as becoming nations. Psalm 78:67 actually says the house of Joseph was rejected. This means Ephraim did not inherit the promises of Jacob.

    Hosea 1:10 tells us they will be called sons of the living God. They will not be sons of the living God if they are disobedient or partly disobedient. (We began our discussion with you claiming God’s promise was unconditional, while I said it was conditional. The condition is quite plain here.) Hosea 1:10 will not be fulfilled until Israel is obedient at the end times.

    The same principle applies when prophecies say Israel will become a blessing to the world. Israel will not be a blessing if they are disobedient. No one blesses with a wicked nation, just as no one blesses with Adolph Hitler. Since we are all human, prone to failure, and since the heroes of faith are few, Israel will only be obedient at the very end times when God gives them new hearts (Ezekiel 11:19). And only then will God multiply them (Isaiah 60).

    The question is when Israel becomes obedient, and when they start becoming numerous. Do they start becoming numerous before they are obedient, or does this start as they begin to return to God? Or do they become numerous only after becoming obedient?

    Your position is that Israel is very numerous right now and growing more so because of God’s blessing.

    My position is that Hosea 1:10 comes much later. Israel is possibly more numerous now than at any time in the past (due to regular population growth), but they are not the “sand of the sea” and definitely not as numerous as they could have been. I’m applying Deuteronomy 28:62 and Isaiah 48:17 specifically for my position (also: Hosea 9:11-14, 17, Ezekiel 28:30, 41, Isaiah 60:1-22). Israel has forgotten the covenant and are still disobedient. They cannot be the “sand of the sea” yet. Hosea 1:10 is not yet being fulfilled. Ezekiel 36:26-38, 37:26, Jeremiah 23:3-5, and 30:15-24 all indicate Israel will become numerous at the very end, not now.

    Which specific verses are you using to say Israel is growing right now according to the blessing despite being disobedient? (And if you can find such a verse, explain how that doesn’t contradict Deuteronomy 28:62 and Isaiah 48:17 and the verses immediately above.)

    Just because a condition is not mentioned with a promise doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us God is going to put the law and a new covenant into Israel’s heart, and then they will be obedient. He will do this because (as you said before) Israel can’t be perfect without help. This hasn’t happened yet.

    You wrote:
    2. You refer to Flavius Josephus as if he was some trivial historical source… which is interesting since most scholars who study the 1st century have high regards for what he recorded, being one of the most prominent sources of information from that period. He said Israel became a vast multitude in the same regions Assyria deported them to, yet you turn a blind-arrogant eye to what he said… even though it confirms what the Prophets said would come of Israel.

    My reply:
    You jumped to the wrong conclusion of my opinion of Josephus. I don’t consider him trivial at all. Good historians present facts and do not speculate. They make clear when they give opinions and back them up with reason or other proof. Good historians are not afraid to oppose public opinion when they have the facts. If Josephus had more information, he would have recorded it. Your idea that he was cautious of Roman reaction doesn’t fit the profile of a good historian. Josephus could easily have given many reasons why Judah and Israel weren’t seeing eye to eye any longer and this would have allayed any Roman suspicions. He wrote what he knew. You’re the one who wants to speculate on what he meant and stretch what little he said.

    You wrote:
    3. You assume the Europeans came out of the Siberian plateau based upon who knows what. Yet, genetics has confirmed they came to Europe via the Middle East and the Caucasus/Caspian (the region of the Medes to which the Assyrians deported Israel). Many of the Hebrew Prophets indicate Jacob would return from the north country (Zechariah 2:6) and from all the places YHVH scattered them (Isaiah 43:6; Jeremiah 31:8). Gog and Magog are also in the north country. This shouldn’t be alarming since Genesis confirms Japheth would dwell in the tents of Shem (Genesis 9:27). Hosea being commanded to marry a woman named “Gomer” is also a picture of Israelites and Japhetic peoples mixing in some fashion.

    My reply:
    I take issue with your picture of Hosea and Gomer showing Israelites and Japhetic peoples mixing. The real picture is God marrying Israel, compared with Hosea marrying Gomer. Just as God was not “lost”, so the prophet was not “lost.” And just as Israel needed saving, so Gomer was in need of saving. A lost Israel mixing with lost Japhetic peoples fits neither parallel. It doesn’t make sense.

    By the way, Genesis 9:27 does not say Japheth would dwell in the tents of Shem. The text reads: “let Japheth dwell in the tents of Shem” (RSV). Noah wanted his children to live in peace, but he knew it might not happen. We know from history the Europeans warred amongst themselves and with the south.

    Are you assuming that I don’t believe the Europeans were descended from Noah, just because I didn’t mention where the “Siberians” came from? You’re jumping to conclusions again.

    Your claim that genetics proves the European peoples came from the Middle East through the Caucasus/Caspian region is inaccurate. Genetics is only confirming this was one of the routes people took. You don’t know if this was the only route.

    People from Mesopotamia could have spread towards the north, northwest and northeast (Siberia) through many different routes. If the people in the northeast later moved west due to famine, plague, climate change or war, they would leave their genetic footprint only in the west, which is what you claim to be seeing today. This doesn’t prove the Caucasus region was the one and only route.

    Current genetic technology requires living descendants to remain in a region. (Has there been a breakthrough examining DNA found in century old grave sites?) If these descendants moved away, genetics would have nothing to work on. (Are graves being tested?)

    I think you’re placing too much faith in this new use of genetics. Preliminary results can hardly be termed “proof.” The recent record of experts has not been good (HRT for women, the environment, ancient Egyptian history, genetics and eugenics etc).

    The Nazis gave up searching for the perfect Aryan descent because they discovered Jewish ancestry everywhere. Inter-marriages over the past 2000(+) years mixed the genes. Without the original DNA of Judah, Ephraim (or even Japheth and Shem), how can you say there’s proof that the European peoples are descendants of Ephraim? Might you not be mixing this up with Judah (the Jews)?

    A hypotheses is not proof. Stop claiming it is. You’re misrepresenting J.D. McDonald’s work, which is simply a map of haplogroups around 1500 AD. This map gives no indication of genes moving in any direction.

    Perhaps you should have a look at Spencer Wells’ book, “Deep Ancestry” (2007). He completely refutes your claim that Europeans came from the Middle East through the Caucasus/Caspian region.

    On page 106 of his book is a map showing the migration of DNA from Africa into the Middle East. This map clearly shows two routes of genetic migration into Europe from the Middle East. The first is through Asia Minor (Turkey). The second route travels almost 1000 miles eastwards (Pakistan) before heading north into Siberia. (This can hardly be termed the Caucasus/Caspian region.) From Siberia, the genetic migration branches east and west. The western branch goes into Europe. (Hence my statement that the European peoples came out of Siberia.)

    In a caption on page 51, Wells writes, “… only a minority of today’s European lineages descend directly from early Middle Eastern agriculturalists.” In other words, people migrating from the Middle East became other peoples and nations, and intermarried with other peoples and nations losing many of their original genetic traces long before entering Europe.

    On page 4, Wells tells us the Genographic Project is trying to genetically map indigenous people because they were the ones who lived in a region the longest, and it is only from this data that inferences could be made concerning the migration of genes and people. As he says, “Once they (indigenous people) enter the melting pot, their DNA loses the geographic context in which the genetic patterns create a clear trail.” This is still a work in progress, and it has to be rushed before indigenous people are all assimilated into the cultures now around them.

    The big unanswered question is what mistakes genetics might make if the indigenous people they’re testing aren’t the original inhabitants.

    I don’t know which source of information you’re drawing your claims from. (Spencer Wells’ genetic map is very simple and clear.) You’re either misinterpreting the genetic data, or calling genetics proof when there’s still disagreement on the data itself. Either way, your conclusions are premature.

    You wrote:
    4. You’re right, the Most High “did not promise Abraham that each generation of his descendants would be more numerous than the last.” At least not in those words. But He did promise to Abraham that he would be a “father of many nations” (Genesis 17:5)… albeit… the promise was given in the Hebrew language and the English translation is remarkably true to the original text. Yet, you can and likely will interpret that to fit your Palestinian premise. But I’m going to interpret it as this: Abraham is going to be a “father of many nations”. I’ve documented a long list of the scriptural multitude promises here: http://jewsandjoes.com/the-birthrightpromise-of-multitudes-in-scripture.html

    My reply:
    You’re forgetting that even without Jacob, Abraham was already the father of nations. Ishmael and the sons of Keturah all became peoples and nations. God’s promise to Abraham has already been fulfilled. The promise to Jacob was that he too would become a nation, and then become nations (Gen. 34:11). Since Israel was disobedient, the promise stopped temporarily at one nation. It will be fulfilled in the end times, not now (Isaiah 60).

    I’m actually going to expand my original idea. I agree with you that the Palestinians by themselves are too small even for a tiny pre-downpayment of any of the promises to come. I’m going to include Assyria, and Egypt (Isaiah 19:23-25). (More on this below.)

    You wrote:
    5. 10 million Israelites in King Solomon’s day? I’m not sure where you’re getting that number from, but let us assume you’re approximately correct. What can Exponential Population Growth do with 10 million Israelites after 3,000 years? I can tell you one thing: the meager Palestinian population doesn’t represent it!!!!! See my article here: Exponential Human Population Growth from Noah. You are either blind to the power of exponents or willfully ignorant of them. Also, your referencing 1Kings 4:20 (sands of the sea shore) doesn’t diminish the Prophecy of Hosea… but instead, it actually lends even greater credibility to what Israel has become over the last 3000 years since.

    My reply:
    I guess I wasn’t clear in making my point in my previous email. The writer of Kings equated “the sand of the sea” in Solomon’s time to the population of Israel at that time. My guess was that at most, Israel’s population was 10 million. Moses, Joshua and the writer of Kings all said God had already fulfilled his promises to Israel (Deuteronomy 1:10, Joshua 24:14, 1 Kings 4:20). When God makes Israel “like the sand of the sea” in the future, even 5 or 10 million would therefore fulfill the promise. We don’t have to expect tens or hundreds of millions now.

    How did I arrive at 10 million? David’s census placed the population at 800,000 for Israel, and 500,000 for Judah (2 Samuel 24:9) a total of 1.3 million able bodied men. Double this number to include the number of able bodied women: 2.6 million. Double this number again for the young, old, and those not so fit: 5.2 million. My estimate of 10 million is the very upper limit.

    I am well aware of the potential of geometric growth population. If you looked at my web site, you would have found several articles dealing with population growth. I am also well aware of the historical facts. Human population growth remained slow for thousands of years (until recently).

    Naturally you’re applying the promise unconditionally to say Israel would have grown even more astronomically by now. You’re also applying the promise to every last person who was born into Jacob’s family tree. Anyone who was alive 3000 years ago, and who had children would now be father of multitudes and nations too. This is hardly a unique promise from God. I’m not treating God’s promises your way. If they don’t consider themselves to be “Israelite” and don’t hold to the covenant, I’m not including them.

    Rehoboam raised 180,000 troops from all Judah and Benjamin not long after David and Solomon (1 Kings 12:21). Where did all the people go? There was no war, plague or major disaster. Here are a few possibilities: 1) Solomon’s behaviour drove people away. 2) Rehoboam’s harshness drove people away. 3) The threat of heavy taxes made many renounce their citizenship to avoid paying. 4) Disobedience stopped God’s blessing. 5) Israelites were already abandoning their heritage.

    You wrote:
    6. I have not said there will be massive return of the House of Joseph to the Land. I’ve only verified that they themselves have become a multitude just as the Torah and Prophets said they would. There is no doubt in my mind that only a remnant will return to the Land of Israel, namely because that is what the Prophets indicate (i.e. Jeremiah 31:7). And I suspect even that remnant is going to shock the socks off of all the “theological gymnasts” like yourself… because even a remnant of the House of Joseph is going to cause them to cry out for more room when they return to the Land of Israel. Isaiah 49:20 “The children of whom you were bereaved will yet say in your ears, ‘The place is too cramped for me; Make room for me that I may live here.”

    Note: The Palestinians don’t need more room in Israel. They just want the Jews to be gone. They only crowd in to under-capacity cities in the Gaza. There is plenty of room yet in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon where the bulk of their populations dwell.

    My reply:
    If the vast multitudes you claim as descendants of Israel are not going to return, don’t remember God, and are disobedient to the covenant, why speculate about them at all?

    I don’t disagree with you about Israel needing more room in the future (Isaiah 49:20), but I do disagree about the timing. Like Hosea 1:10, this will be when Israel comes back to God, not now.

    The return of Israel in the future isn’t anything what you think it is. It’s going to be the judgement of Israel (Ezekiel 20:33-39). He will purge the “rebels” (i.e. the disobedient). Frankly, in this case, it might be better if there were fewer people returning rather than millions. I don’t see how God can judge anyone if he didn’t expect any conditions from them. And since God calls these “Israelites” rebels, it’s clear he expected them to be obedient.

    You wrote:
    7. Assyria’s capital was east of the Euphrates and east of the Euphrates is the location of most of the deportations. Yet, most of the Palestinians have no historical evidence of returning from Assyria. Maybe you’re getting confused with modern nation of Syria which is west of the Euphrates.

    My reply:
    Are you assuming the Assyrians exiled every last Israelite? Jeremiah 40:11-12, 42:11-14, and 2 Kings 17:24-26 clearly tell us there were Israelites left in Canaan after the fall of Samaria. The Assyrians exiled the urban ruling class. And since in those days most of the population lived in the rural areas, this means the majority of Israel’s population remained in the land. Of course these people would have no record of returning from Assyria. Palestinians claim they have always been there.

    Israelite exiles who forgot their ancestry would have no records to keep. 136 years lie between the fall of Samaria and the fall of Jerusalem, time enough for 3 generations (40 years each) of exiled Israelites to completely forget their ancestry and assimilate into Assyria or whatever peoples happen to be in the area.

    Babylon and Persia both ruled Mesopotamia after Assyria. Both empires conscripted from their subjugated peoples, and both empires hired mercenaries. (It wouldn’t make any sense for these empires to not use a human resource.) Persia ruled the Middle East and Egypt. This raises the strong probability their armies, garrisons and colonists reseeded Israel into Canaan and even Egypt. (Your theory of urban Israelites exiled into Assyrian cities wandering off into the unsettled north with their foreign rulers taking no action whatsoever is less probable.)

    You wrote:
    8. Your explanation of the verses in Hosea (5:13, 7:11, 9:3, 11:5,11)…

    My reply:
    If you interpret these verses your way they won’t fit the prophetic context referring to the future, and they won’t fit the verses below.

    Regarding the prophetic context:
    Hosea chapter 5 to chapter 7 describes Israel at that time (as you say), but is also interspersed with verses referring to future events. Thus the description of Israel calling for help from Egypt and going to Assyria (6:11) like a silly dove also applies to that time and the future. The Palestinians fit this description perfectly. They relied on their neighbours to the north and south in 1948, 1956, 1967 and in 1973, and each time their neighbours failed them miserably, leaving them in worse condition than before. (No European people would fit this description.)

    Spiritually speaking, anyone who does not rely on God relies on potentially harmful substitutes. This is another way Hosea 6:11 applied to that ancient time, and even up to the present.

    Other verses:
    Isaiah 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

    Isaiah 27:13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

    Zechariah 10:10 I will bring them home from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, till there is no room for them.

    These verses mention specific nations and lands. Egypt in this case cannot be “tribulation.” I do not doubt that there are descendants of Israel in the north, and in other regions around the world, but these verses are clear, a sizeable portion is in the Middle East.

    Isaiah 19:25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my heritage.”

    God is calling the Egyptians his people!

    Let’s see whether your theory or mine fits the verses below:

    Genesis 13:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates…

    God gave Abraham’s children Canaan, and parts of Assyria, and Egypt. Your theory places Israel in Europe with some of them to be called back later. My theory places Israel in these three lands right now.

    Genesis 48:16 the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and in them let my name be perpetuated, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”

    Ephraim growing in Europe or along the north is not “in the midst of the earth.” The Middle East, where continents join is “the midst of the earth.”

    Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and they shall come in fear to the LORD and to his goodness in the latter days. (Even the whole last part of Hosea 1 refers to the very end where there will be no more war.)

    Israel receives God’s ‘goodness’ at the end, not now.

    Christian Europe had kings and princes, churches and the teachings of Christ. They inherited the Old Testament along with the New. They knew God. Hosea 3:4-5 tells us Israel will have none of these! Logically, Europeans can’t be descendants of Israel.

    You should check out Ezekiel 38:2-14. Gog and Magog already existed in Ezekiel’s time. These are the people who will attack Israel at the end, and they will be vast numerous hordes. Nothing in this passage even hints at Israel being numerous, or being multiple nations. To say Europeans are Israelites contradicts Ezekiel.

    Of course, you claim Western Europeans are not the same as Eastern Europeans, but Spencer Wells’ genetic map shows they all came from Siberia.

    An Israel that forgot her convenant (dwelling in Assyria, Canaan and Egypt) would fit this verse. All three areas were controlled by outside empires, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome (or Parthia in the east), and later Islam. They had no kings or princes of their own. And under Islam, they had no sacrifice, no ephod, and no teraphim. At the same time, they didn’t know God (YHWH) either. They were taught Allah and given the Qu’ran.

    ***Isaiah 11:13 The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart, and those who harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.***

    Your current theory is completely at odds with Isaiah 11:13. If the European peoples are Ephraim, this verse makes no sense.

    There is no record of Ephraim being jealous of Judah while in Assyria. There is a record of jealousy the moment the Judean exiles returned to Canaan. This was from the Samaritans (Ezra 4:1, Nehemiah 2:10).

    Ezekiel 4:5 tells us Israel would be punished 390 years. 390 years from the fall of Samaria in 721 BC would be 331 BC (Alexander’s conquest of Persia). Many lost tribe theorists claim the exiled Israelites were freed by Alexander’s conquest and began their migration at that time. Again history records no jealousy of Ephraim and Judah in Assyria or Persia. But there is one event that does tell us Ephraim remained jaelous, the Samaritan uprising against Alexander (also in that year) due to the Jews (see Timetables of Jewish History by Gribetz).

    Christian Europe has never been jealous of Judah (the Jews). They have something better: the Messiah and his teachings.

    Christian Europe has ignorantly persecuted Judah for centuries. According to your theory, this would be Ephraim harassing Judah. And since the enemies of Judah will be cut off, this means Ephraim will be cut off! You have it all turned around. Isaiah 11:13 says Judah is harassing Ephraim. If as you say, Europe is Ephraim, then Judah should be harassing Europe. Judah has never been capable of harassing Europe.

    On the other hand, consider my theory. The Muslims have always been jealous of Israel, and especially about modern Israel. Most of all, they envy Israel’s claim to God and Abraham.

    Judah harasses the Muslims in two ways:

    1. As long as the nation of Israel exists anywhere (even off the planet!), this means God still loves Israel and is not done with them yet. This destroys the Muslim claims as the successor religion and as successors to Abraham. Modern Israel doesn’t have to do anything to trouble them.

    2. Modern Israel’s military power is capable of striking any Muslim nation in the region. And they have exercised this power to great effect.

    More to the point, modern Israel’s current conflict with the Palestinians fits this verse completely.

    Psalm 108:7 was written by David, but it speaks of God dividing Shechem and Succoth. This was Ephraim’s territory at that time. The only way this makes sense is if this applied to the future. In other words, Shechem would be divided in the future. This description fits the Palestinian West Bank today.

    You might want to consider this. Circumcision has never been practiced consistently in Europe. Circumcision is practiced consistently under Islam. God may have allowed Islam to come into existence to prevent the Israelites from sliding right out of Abraham’s covenant.

    You wrote:
    9. And regarding your tirade regarding the “promise of multitudes” being contingent or conditioned on Israel needing to keep the Torah covenant. When you consider the verses surrounding the promises of multitudes, you don’t find any conditions connected to the promise. And the fact that Hosea (mainly chapter 1), first showing the Northern Kingdom being punished and exiled because of their breaking of the covenant, and yet then still receiving the binding and unconditional promise of: “Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered”

    My reply:
    Tirade? Who is using words like ‘”theological gymnasts” like yourself’, ‘trivial’, or ‘willfully ignorant’?

    You never answered whether circumcision was a conditon or not. Is it a conditon, or isn’t it? I want to see your answer.

    I’ll mention several other “conditons” from the Bible: Genesis 17:14, Exodus 30:33, 30:38, 31:14, Leviticus 7:20, 7:25, 7:27, 17:4, 17:9, 18:29, 20:6, 20:17, 20:18, 23:28-29, Numbers 9:13, 15:30. Anyone who goes against any of these verses is “cut off from his people”, meaning they aren’t Israelite any more. I’m not the one ignoring and bending scripture. You’re the one who’s doing it.

    Hosea 1:10 states at the end times Israel will be called “sons of the living God.” They’re not going to be “sons of the living God” if they are disobedient. I’m not the one trying to take verses out of the prophetic context in which they were given. You are.

    Ezekiel 20:33-39 gives a clear series of events. The people of Israel will be called out by God for judgement. God will “purge” the rebels from their midst. (Why would God purge anyone if there were no conditons?) After all this, God will multiply the remnant (Isaiah 60:1-22, especially v22). There is no support for saying Israel’s descendants are many nations and numerous today.

    Jerry

    PS By the way (just in case you jump to another conclusion), I’m not saying all Muslims are Israelites. Only some Muslims in Egypt, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Kuwait are Israelites. (Seven nations in the regions God promised Abraham.) Today, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq are all filled with tribal groups, and like many nations today now have their own “dispersions” throughout the world. How many of them are Israelite remains to be seen.


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