The tribe of Simeon was scattered among Judah. They were given cities to live in among Judah but did not receive a portion or division of Eretz Yisra’el. That would mean they were not present during the Assyrian captivity. However, they would have been present when the Jews were carried away to Babylon.
Am I missing something here? Should we be referring to the Northern nine tribes instead of ten? Would Simeon be considered judah or Ephraim (Joseph)?
Compare the Census of Numbers 1:1-54 and the Census of Numbers 26:1-65. You’ll see a drastic reduction in Simeon’s tribal count in comparison with the other tribes. Then in Deuteronomy 33, Moshe does not even include Simeon in his final blessing. Some teachers think the bulk of Simeon’s population left the Assembly and settled in southern Greece. See the article Mystery of the Gentiles (Goyim) for a few more details.
Thank you Hanok, I will read the references and article. However, you still haven’t given me your opinion on the questions I asked. Is it a Northern ten tribes, or should it be nine tribes if Simeon has been totally removed and moved to Greece? Are they to be considered Judah, since they lived among Judah just as Benjamin did? If they were not included in the final blessing does it mean they were totally cut off from Israel, or are they included in Ephraim, two sticks? Dan was not mentioned among the 144,000 and also Ephraim, what exactly does that mean?
I find it very difficult to figure out just who is included and who is excluded. Just as in your tables of the DNA. My DNA is R1b from Ireland. According to your table, Ireland was not included among those who descended as a sub-clade of Hpg P. My ancestry is from Ireland. I have believed for some time now that I am descended from Dan, because Dan settled in Ireland according to most literature I have read on the subject.
In your opinion, are those from Ireland who are R1b among the Joes?
Thanks and blessings in Yeshua to you.
Hi David! My apologies for neglecting your question. I generally “believe” the remnant of Simeon that stayed in the Assembly of Israel were eventually swallowed up by the predominant tribes of both the northern and southern kingdoms (since they were scattered in the midst of both). If the theories are right regarding Simeon and their presence in the population that later became known as the Lacedemonians (Spartans), then it appears their population there eventually rejoined and mixed with the larger Ephraimite populations that settled in the region at the same time and with those who later moved into Europe from Caucasia and Central Asia (more than a 1000 years later). This is largely why I think they are accounted with 10-Israel, the Joes.
And regarding Ireland: on the Y-Chromosome side, they are heavily weighted with your haplogroup (R1b). I’ve seen estimates that exceed 80% of the male population. The concentration of R1b all over western Europe makes it difficult for me to isolate Ireland and identify it as exclusively the tribe of Dan. I’ve likely read alot of the same 10-Israel literature you’ve read on the subject, and those authors have many interesting things to say, but the only way I can personally see the Irish as Dan is if יהוה uses some other genetic (maybe MT-DNA) or non-genetic mechanism to apply that identification.
Ephraim is represented in the 144k of Revelation as “Joseph”. Compare Ezekiel 37:19 where the Stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim. Simeon’s appearance and Dan’s disappearance in Revelations is very interesting. I’ve wondered if Dan as a broader population, whoever they are today, ultimately betray יהוה in the same fashion of Judas Iscariot, but there may be some other answer that we’ll eventually understand.
Hg R and Hg Q are subclades of Hg P. See Y-DNA Haplogroup P and its Subclades – 2008. By the way, I’m Q1a… and I think our Y-DNA (both R and Q) is of Ephraim. He was the one promised to be the “fullness of the peoples” and on a genetic-level, his descendants did so… they filled up the nations, pushing other peoples (even other Israelite tribes) aside.
Shalom Hanok,
No apologies necessary. We are brothers.
Thank you for your time spent answering my questions. It really helps. If I understand you, if I am Hg R, I am more than likely Ephraim. That is what I thought but I wasn’t sure.
You say you are Hg Q. Are you Native American? I live in Redmond Oregon and there is a large Native American population here. There is a reservation about 30 miles from me. I have given some thought to trying to find a way to minister to them and introduce them to Hebrew roots. No doors have opened however.
I follow you well on the Simeon issue now. I can see how what you say would be true. I reread the blessings in Genesis and it says they will be scattered among Israel, not just Judah. They only received cities in Judah but the scattering would be throughout at one time or another. Thank you for helping me to clear that up in my mind. It was giving me a little trouble.
From one Joe to another, may Yahvah bless you and keep you, may he make His face to shine upon you, may He lift up His countenance upon you and grant you Shalom, b’shem Yeshua HaMashiach!
David
Nope, not Native American… well… at least the scientists think my Q branch arrived here via northern Europe. My particular paternal line arrived in Virginia about 400 years ago, most likely from England (but traditional paper research hasn’t been able to confirm). If you look at some of the Haplogroup migration maps, you’ll see an arm of Q branching off and traveling west. Probably carried with R and/or N during the Great Migration period after Parthia’s decline.
There is much I disagree with regarding Mormon doctrine, but I think they were right regarding the Native American Israelite identity. They definitely need to be fished and ministered to, just like the rest of 10-Israel. (=
Friends….In the book of Revelation (the revelation of the Father to the Son to an angel to John who wrote it down so we could have it)is a list of the twelve final tribes. These names will be written on the outer wall of the new city of Jerusalem that hangs in the sky above the old city of Jerusalem. In this list there is missing the names of Ephraim and Dan. This is because they forsook their heritage and as Yah would have it a full twelve is maintained. Simeon is listed and therefore a member of the final twelve. Whilst living among the “Jews” of the House of Judah they were not ‘undivorced’. Being divorced left them outside the covenant and according to Yahweh in the book of Hoseah there was no compassion to forgive at all. (Hoseah chapter one). It is probably because the headship of the tribe of Simeon was in agreement with the “10-Israel” that they are also divorced of Yahweh even though many were living in Judea at the time. Moving to Judea to escape confrontation with the leader of the clan does not constitute a stand for righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. In America there is much going on in this regard by the ‘chrisitians’. Although they complain about a lot of wrongdoing in America, they will not stand against it. Complaining and ‘standing’ are simply two different actions. America is being ‘dissembled constituitonally’ because false teachers have convinced the vast majority of ‘christians’ to just go along to get along. There is a difference between a ‘registered and licensed by the state church’ and an assembly of peoples under Yahweh and there is a consequence to this under Yahweh. Yahweh does not compromise His Beingness and He does want us to either and yet the vast multitude of ‘christians’ have done just that to the point now where even trying to undo this by those of us who are not deceived results in being assaulted by the network of ‘christians’ who are deceived. If you want evil removed from your system of government then remove it….but waiting for ‘Jesus’ to come to do it for you in the mean time or waiting for a rapture so you don’t have to do anything yourself is not an option. (Because you are faithful in a small thing, the Lord will give you charge over much…His words, not mine) This is why corruption has taken hold in our finance system. For a hundred years now the Federal Reserve system (a private banking system) has ruled in America. The interest on the M1, M2, M3 money supply in this country is phenomenal and beyond the scope of most people but yet it is the responsibility of ‘christian’ people to not defile their country with ‘usury’. Yet the American people have done so, despite the efforts of good men and women, many of whom have been martyred at the stake of American jurisprudence (justice corrupted, I add). When Judah and Benjamin pulled out of the system of the whole House of Israel they formed the ‘southern kingdom of Judea’. Simeon should have collaborated and the head of Simeon should have gone with them. Then it would have been nine tribes. In the time of Yahushua there were many ‘in the land of Judea’ that needed forgiveness and healing. It seems to me that there was a disconnect then. Many were either not keeping the covenant of Yahweh correctly so as to receive forgiveness and healing or were unable to do so because they were of the ten tribes ‘divorced’ and so true to His word in Hosea, Yahweh had no compassion on them…..until Yahushua, His Son and His salvation, through whom forgiveness and healing came. “For God so loved the world that He sent His only ‘begotten’ (born of a woman) Son”….because Yahushua was sent to the lost sheep of the ‘house of Israel’ (divorced) to be a Husband to them and therefore a covenant redeemer for them, then anyone who accepts Him is considered Israel…..goyim or ‘jew’, anyone. Is the Avrahamic covenant done away with? Nope. But those who were divorced from it and from Yahweh their Salvation now have a way back in, and that by the way of the cross. And according to Torah, the divorced woman can not return to her former husband by way which first came, hence the ‘new’ Husband which is ‘One with the Father’. Those who deny the Son deny the One Who sent the Son and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But, those who do not keep both the commandments of the Father and their testimony of the Son will be pushed away by the Son, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The ‘remnant of the house of Judah’ (righteous in the covenant of Avraham and not divorced of Yahweh, the actual wife to Yahweh the Father) will be united to the ‘elect of Yahushua’, the redeemed of the house of Israel, the wise virgins, the ones who keep both the commandments of the Father and the testimony of the Son, the actual wife to the Son, ie the bride of ‘Christ’. This will be the whole house (reign, kingdom) of Israel. It makes sense then that there will be many who come in the name of the Lord but do not keep His Word, doing iniquity instead. They do not keep the feast days of Yahweh the Father, a grievous sin, grieving the Holy spirit by denying the times of the Son. And there are many in the house of Judah today who add to the Torah by means of keeping as scripture the commands of men, ie the Talmud or the Mishnah, etc hence also grieving the Holy Spirit. At this writing, in my estimate, there are only a few who actually are chosen by Yahweh or recognized as ‘righteous’. Most people don’t really know what ‘righteousness’ is and therefore do not know how to repent or that there is even a need for repentance.
All the tribes are represented here today in full sight of Yahweh Elohim, including the ‘head’ of each tribe. The namesakes for each tribe are known and the members are known. We do not know, but God knows. He will gather us together at the ‘moed’, the time of His choosing, which He has already set down for us to know by simply keeping His feast days properly. So, don’t think it strange of me to hear me say “I am Joseph of the house of Joseph”. That is who I am and I am blessed to know who I am. Find your house and you’ll know who you are.
March 13th, 2009 - 07:48
The tribe of Simeon was scattered among Judah. They were given cities to live in among Judah but did not receive a portion or division of Eretz Yisra’el. That would mean they were not present during the Assyrian captivity. However, they would have been present when the Jews were carried away to Babylon.
Am I missing something here? Should we be referring to the Northern nine tribes instead of ten? Would Simeon be considered judah or Ephraim (Joseph)?
March 14th, 2009 - 00:30
Compare the Census of Numbers 1:1-54 and the Census of Numbers 26:1-65. You’ll see a drastic reduction in Simeon’s tribal count in comparison with the other tribes. Then in Deuteronomy 33, Moshe does not even include Simeon in his final blessing. Some teachers think the bulk of Simeon’s population left the Assembly and settled in southern Greece. See the article Mystery of the Gentiles (Goyim) for a few more details.
March 14th, 2009 - 08:42
Thank you Hanok, I will read the references and article. However, you still haven’t given me your opinion on the questions I asked. Is it a Northern ten tribes, or should it be nine tribes if Simeon has been totally removed and moved to Greece? Are they to be considered Judah, since they lived among Judah just as Benjamin did? If they were not included in the final blessing does it mean they were totally cut off from Israel, or are they included in Ephraim, two sticks? Dan was not mentioned among the 144,000 and also Ephraim, what exactly does that mean?
I find it very difficult to figure out just who is included and who is excluded. Just as in your tables of the DNA. My DNA is R1b from Ireland. According to your table, Ireland was not included among those who descended as a sub-clade of Hpg P. My ancestry is from Ireland. I have believed for some time now that I am descended from Dan, because Dan settled in Ireland according to most literature I have read on the subject.
In your opinion, are those from Ireland who are R1b among the Joes?
Thanks and blessings in Yeshua to you.
March 14th, 2009 - 11:28
Hi David! My apologies for neglecting your question. I generally “believe” the remnant of Simeon that stayed in the Assembly of Israel were eventually swallowed up by the predominant tribes of both the northern and southern kingdoms (since they were scattered in the midst of both). If the theories are right regarding Simeon and their presence in the population that later became known as the Lacedemonians (Spartans), then it appears their population there eventually rejoined and mixed with the larger Ephraimite populations that settled in the region at the same time and with those who later moved into Europe from Caucasia and Central Asia (more than a 1000 years later). This is largely why I think they are accounted with 10-Israel, the Joes.
And regarding Ireland: on the Y-Chromosome side, they are heavily weighted with your haplogroup (R1b). I’ve seen estimates that exceed 80% of the male population. The concentration of R1b all over western Europe makes it difficult for me to isolate Ireland and identify it as exclusively the tribe of Dan. I’ve likely read alot of the same 10-Israel literature you’ve read on the subject, and those authors have many interesting things to say, but the only way I can personally see the Irish as Dan is if יהוה uses some other genetic (maybe MT-DNA) or non-genetic mechanism to apply that identification.
Ephraim is represented in the 144k of Revelation as “Joseph”. Compare Ezekiel 37:19 where the Stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim. Simeon’s appearance and Dan’s disappearance in Revelations is very interesting. I’ve wondered if Dan as a broader population, whoever they are today, ultimately betray יהוה in the same fashion of Judas Iscariot, but there may be some other answer that we’ll eventually understand.
Hg R and Hg Q are subclades of Hg P. See Y-DNA Haplogroup P and its Subclades – 2008. By the way, I’m Q1a… and I think our Y-DNA (both R and Q) is of Ephraim. He was the one promised to be the “fullness of the peoples” and on a genetic-level, his descendants did so… they filled up the nations, pushing other peoples (even other Israelite tribes) aside.
March 14th, 2009 - 16:08
Shalom Hanok,
No apologies necessary. We are brothers.
Thank you for your time spent answering my questions. It really helps. If I understand you, if I am Hg R, I am more than likely Ephraim. That is what I thought but I wasn’t sure.
You say you are Hg Q. Are you Native American? I live in Redmond Oregon and there is a large Native American population here. There is a reservation about 30 miles from me. I have given some thought to trying to find a way to minister to them and introduce them to Hebrew roots. No doors have opened however.
I follow you well on the Simeon issue now. I can see how what you say would be true. I reread the blessings in Genesis and it says they will be scattered among Israel, not just Judah. They only received cities in Judah but the scattering would be throughout at one time or another. Thank you for helping me to clear that up in my mind. It was giving me a little trouble.
From one Joe to another, may Yahvah bless you and keep you, may he make His face to shine upon you, may He lift up His countenance upon you and grant you Shalom, b’shem Yeshua HaMashiach!
David
March 15th, 2009 - 13:50
Nope, not Native American… well… at least the scientists think my Q branch arrived here via northern Europe. My particular paternal line arrived in Virginia about 400 years ago, most likely from England (but traditional paper research hasn’t been able to confirm). If you look at some of the Haplogroup migration maps, you’ll see an arm of Q branching off and traveling west. Probably carried with R and/or N during the Great Migration period after Parthia’s decline.
There is much I disagree with regarding Mormon doctrine, but I think they were right regarding the Native American Israelite identity. They definitely need to be fished and ministered to, just like the rest of 10-Israel. (=
May 23rd, 2010 - 09:58
Friends….In the book of Revelation (the revelation of the Father to the Son to an angel to John who wrote it down so we could have it)is a list of the twelve final tribes. These names will be written on the outer wall of the new city of Jerusalem that hangs in the sky above the old city of Jerusalem. In this list there is missing the names of Ephraim and Dan. This is because they forsook their heritage and as Yah would have it a full twelve is maintained. Simeon is listed and therefore a member of the final twelve. Whilst living among the “Jews” of the House of Judah they were not ‘undivorced’. Being divorced left them outside the covenant and according to Yahweh in the book of Hoseah there was no compassion to forgive at all. (Hoseah chapter one). It is probably because the headship of the tribe of Simeon was in agreement with the “10-Israel” that they are also divorced of Yahweh even though many were living in Judea at the time. Moving to Judea to escape confrontation with the leader of the clan does not constitute a stand for righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. In America there is much going on in this regard by the ‘chrisitians’. Although they complain about a lot of wrongdoing in America, they will not stand against it. Complaining and ‘standing’ are simply two different actions. America is being ‘dissembled constituitonally’ because false teachers have convinced the vast majority of ‘christians’ to just go along to get along. There is a difference between a ‘registered and licensed by the state church’ and an assembly of peoples under Yahweh and there is a consequence to this under Yahweh. Yahweh does not compromise His Beingness and He does want us to either and yet the vast multitude of ‘christians’ have done just that to the point now where even trying to undo this by those of us who are not deceived results in being assaulted by the network of ‘christians’ who are deceived. If you want evil removed from your system of government then remove it….but waiting for ‘Jesus’ to come to do it for you in the mean time or waiting for a rapture so you don’t have to do anything yourself is not an option. (Because you are faithful in a small thing, the Lord will give you charge over much…His words, not mine) This is why corruption has taken hold in our finance system. For a hundred years now the Federal Reserve system (a private banking system) has ruled in America. The interest on the M1, M2, M3 money supply in this country is phenomenal and beyond the scope of most people but yet it is the responsibility of ‘christian’ people to not defile their country with ‘usury’. Yet the American people have done so, despite the efforts of good men and women, many of whom have been martyred at the stake of American jurisprudence (justice corrupted, I add). When Judah and Benjamin pulled out of the system of the whole House of Israel they formed the ‘southern kingdom of Judea’. Simeon should have collaborated and the head of Simeon should have gone with them. Then it would have been nine tribes. In the time of Yahushua there were many ‘in the land of Judea’ that needed forgiveness and healing. It seems to me that there was a disconnect then. Many were either not keeping the covenant of Yahweh correctly so as to receive forgiveness and healing or were unable to do so because they were of the ten tribes ‘divorced’ and so true to His word in Hosea, Yahweh had no compassion on them…..until Yahushua, His Son and His salvation, through whom forgiveness and healing came. “For God so loved the world that He sent His only ‘begotten’ (born of a woman) Son”….because Yahushua was sent to the lost sheep of the ‘house of Israel’ (divorced) to be a Husband to them and therefore a covenant redeemer for them, then anyone who accepts Him is considered Israel…..goyim or ‘jew’, anyone. Is the Avrahamic covenant done away with? Nope. But those who were divorced from it and from Yahweh their Salvation now have a way back in, and that by the way of the cross. And according to Torah, the divorced woman can not return to her former husband by way which first came, hence the ‘new’ Husband which is ‘One with the Father’. Those who deny the Son deny the One Who sent the Son and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But, those who do not keep both the commandments of the Father and their testimony of the Son will be pushed away by the Son, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The ‘remnant of the house of Judah’ (righteous in the covenant of Avraham and not divorced of Yahweh, the actual wife to Yahweh the Father) will be united to the ‘elect of Yahushua’, the redeemed of the house of Israel, the wise virgins, the ones who keep both the commandments of the Father and the testimony of the Son, the actual wife to the Son, ie the bride of ‘Christ’. This will be the whole house (reign, kingdom) of Israel. It makes sense then that there will be many who come in the name of the Lord but do not keep His Word, doing iniquity instead. They do not keep the feast days of Yahweh the Father, a grievous sin, grieving the Holy spirit by denying the times of the Son. And there are many in the house of Judah today who add to the Torah by means of keeping as scripture the commands of men, ie the Talmud or the Mishnah, etc hence also grieving the Holy Spirit. At this writing, in my estimate, there are only a few who actually are chosen by Yahweh or recognized as ‘righteous’. Most people don’t really know what ‘righteousness’ is and therefore do not know how to repent or that there is even a need for repentance.
All the tribes are represented here today in full sight of Yahweh Elohim, including the ‘head’ of each tribe. The namesakes for each tribe are known and the members are known. We do not know, but God knows. He will gather us together at the ‘moed’, the time of His choosing, which He has already set down for us to know by simply keeping His feast days properly. So, don’t think it strange of me to hear me say “I am Joseph of the house of Joseph”. That is who I am and I am blessed to know who I am. Find your house and you’ll know who you are.